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-   -   I just inherited this, does anyone know anything about it? (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=362938)

AndrewSly 03-29-2009 08:20 PM
I just inherited this, does anyone know anything about it?
 
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3631/...22a192.jpg?v=0

Does anyone know about this type of dagger?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3449/...ab4d96.jpg?v=0

I have searched the internet, and haven't found anything like this. I was hopping to find a value also.

Thanks Guys

unalga 03-29-2009 09:06 PM
Re: I just inherited this, does anyone know anything about it?
 
If not a copy, you have quite an item.

The steel maker/forger should be on there somewhere and that is the important info.

Agfinger 03-29-2009 10:33 PM
Re: I just inherited this, does anyone know anything about it?
 
It is not a "dagger"..

It is a standard dress German Police bayonet...The inlaid emblem in the grip is the key to distinguishing it from Border Guard and Water Police variations..Nothing really rare, but it looks like a decent piece.

Probably worth in the $350 range....It is the cut down version of a standard longer variety...How can I tell? The blood groove goes to the end of the blade.

Remember, when looking at prices, there are exorbitant "ask" prices and there are reality "sell" prices...

German militaria has the worst buy/sell spreads of anything on the face of the earth.

I have bought and sold a dump truck full of it over the years. I just recently sold an NSKK dagger and a Police sword and bought SAE's...

Ringhunter 03-29-2009 11:02 PM
Re: I just inherited this, does anyone know anything about it?
 
Police dress bayonet, like agfinger said, keep it for close work in the near future.

Bill843 03-30-2009 02:00 AM
Re: I just inherited this, does anyone know anything about it?
 
I'd want someone experienced in German knives to take a look at it and say what they think. Check at any gun/knife shows locally, or ask at any knife shops (if you have one anywhere near).

It could very well be real but a lot of fakes have been made. If it were mine, I myself would want to know what it really was, even if it was kept only for memento/curiosity reasons.

-end-

Agfinger 03-30-2009 05:56 AM
Re: I just inherited this, does anyone know anything about it?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill843 (Post 1652925)
I'd want someone experienced in German knives to take a look at it and say what they think. Check at any gun/knife shows locally, or ask at any knife shops (if you have one anywhere near).

It could very well be real but a lot of fakes have been made. If it were mine, I myself would want to know what it really was, even if it was kept only for memento/curiosity reasons.

-end-
I am experienced in German "knives" and I told him what it was..

It is a dress German Police bayonet cut down version manufactured from 1933 to app 1942.

There is no need to go to a "knife show" and let a scheister offer him $75 for it...

To my knowledge, there were never any quality fakes made of this variety because; 1) The Police bayonets simply don't have enough value to fake until very recently and 2) Mainly more elite troops daggers such as SS, SA and others are faked and 3) The stage handles make it hard to fake effectively.

His piece has patina and is real. I would bet $100 on it....Plus no one would EVER fake a cut down version with the blood grove that extends to the end of the blade. A faker would make the shorter version, (uncut).

Glass 03-30-2009 06:33 AM
Re: I just inherited this, does anyone know anything about it?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agfinger (Post 1653033)
I am experienced in German "knives" and I told him what it was..

It is a dress German Police bayonet cut down version manufactured from 1933 to app 1942.

There is no need to go to a "knife show" and let a scheister offer him $75 for it...

To my knowledge, there were never any quality fakes made of this variety because; 1) The Police bayonets simply don't have enough value to fake until very recently and 2) Mainly more elite troops daggers such as SS, SA and others are faked and 3) The stage handles make it hard to fake effectively.

His piece has patina and is real. I would bet $100 on it....Plus no one would EVER fake a cut down version with the blood grove that extends to the end of the blade. A faker would make the shorter version, (uncut).
I don't know or didn't know anything about these until today. After a bit of searching I pegged it as a police dress bayonet from what I read. There are quite a few people trading in uniforms which was an eye opener for me.

Can you tell us anything specific about the ornate nature of this one. The examples I have seen don't appear as detailed as this one in terms of the handle. The ivory portion in particular. Would it represent anything special like a rank or region of Germany?

argentos 03-30-2009 08:09 AM
Re: I just inherited this, does anyone know anything about it?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agfinger (Post 1652674)
It is not a "dagger"..

It is a standard dress German Police bayonet...The inlaid emblem in the grip is the key to distinguishing it from Border Guard and Water Police variations..Nothing really rare, but it looks like a decent piece.

Probably worth in the $350 range....It is the cut down version of a standard longer variety...How can I tell? The blood groove goes to the end of the blade.

Remember, when looking at prices, there are exorbitant "ask" prices and there are reality "sell" prices...

German militaria has the worst buy/sell spreads of anything on the face of the earth.

I have bought and sold a dump truck full of it over the years. I just recently sold an NSKK dagger and a Police sword and bought SAE's...

I just wonder (knowing nothing of militaria) whether the antler grips might suggest a separate Forest Ranger-type force or particular Police section?

elroy 03-30-2009 09:37 AM
Re: I just inherited this, does anyone know anything about it?
 
Can you guys explain the exact purpose of the blood groove?

I assume it is to let blood run out of the guy on the pointy end of this thing but once you stab and withdraw what difference would it make?

JJ_ 03-30-2009 10:16 AM
Re: I just inherited this, does anyone know anything about it?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by elroy (Post 1653211)
Can you guys explain the exact purpose of the blood groove?

I assume it is to let blood run out of the guy on the pointy end of this thing but once you stab and withdraw what difference would it make?

It's called a fuller and its function is to lighten and strengthen a blade.

Big_Rob 03-30-2009 10:42 AM
Re: I just inherited this, does anyone know anything about it?
 
I actually think it looks nicer than the regular officers bayonet

90%RealMoney 03-30-2009 12:13 PM
Re: I just inherited this, does anyone know anything about it?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agfinger (Post 1653033)
I am experienced in German "knives" and I told him what it was..

It is a dress German Police bayonet cut down version manufactured from 1933 to app 1942.

There is no need to go to a "knife show" and let a scheister offer him $75 for it...

To my knowledge, there were never any quality fakes made of this variety because; 1) The Police bayonets simply don't have enough value to fake until very recently and 2) Mainly more elite troops daggers such as SS, SA and others are faked and 3) The stage handles make it hard to fake effectively.

His piece has patina and is real. I would bet $100 on it....Plus no one would EVER fake a cut down version with the blood grove that extends to the end of the blade. A faker would make the shorter version, (uncut).

AG, I saw a show on the SS on Military channel I think. Those daggers that were given to the SS officers are beautiful. What does one of those babies go for?

argentos 03-30-2009 12:34 PM
Re: I just inherited this, does anyone know anything about it?
 
1 Attachment(s)
Pity it's not one of these, a snip at $3,499.99. :elefant:

http://snyderstreasures.com/images/g...CustomsLOA.jpg
http://www.snyderstreasures.com/page...anbayonets.htm

negative1 03-30-2009 01:10 PM
Re: I just inherited this, does anyone know anything about it?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 90%RealMoney (Post 1653458)
AG, I saw a show on the SS on Military channel I think. Those daggers that were given to the SS officers are beautiful. What does one of those babies go for?
I picked this Luft up at a show about 2 years ago for $130 but she is in rough shape. Would I sell her for that? No!

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/reich.JPG

My Army cost me $600 and the Red Cross Hewer I picked up was the same. I have since grown out of them and moved on to antique sabers.

A nice dagger should be about $400 to $800.

:biggrin:

Agfinger 03-30-2009 05:32 PM
Re: I just inherited this, does anyone know anything about it?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glass (Post 1653056)
I don't know or didn't know anything about these until today. After a bit of searching I pegged it as a police dress bayonet from what I read. There are quite a few people trading in uniforms which was an eye opener for me.

Can you tell us anything specific about the ornate nature of this one. The examples I have seen don't appear as detailed as this one in terms of the handle. The ivory portion in particular. Would it represent anything special like a rank or region of Germany?
All Police bayonets are very close to this in looks and design. The condition looks to be above average, (probably 8+), and the scabbard is clean.

The word "bayonet" is actually a misnomer in that it MAY not even have a grooved fuller in which the bayonet attaches to a rifle. Being that this is a cut-down version, I would imagine that it does actually have a grooved fuller because I think this particular bayonet was an actual Reichswehr combate style bayonet that was modified to a dress bayonet, cut down and then engraved and chromed..I would have to see the top of the bayonet to tell.

Agfinger 03-30-2009 05:36 PM
Re: I just inherited this, does anyone know anything about it?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by argentos (Post 1653131)
I just wonder (knowing nothing of militaria) whether the antler grips might suggest a separate Forest Ranger-type force or particular Police section?
No...Virtually all Police bayonets look like this...It was simply a design that the early SD adopted to distinguish itself.

The standard German Police had NO daggers authorized for wear....Only swords and dress bayonets....As the German Police merged with the SS late in the war, many of the later German Police swords are SS proofed and marked as such.

This bayonet is too early for such markings and was probably manufactured too early in the war based on quality and blade length design.

Agfinger 03-30-2009 05:38 PM
Re: I just inherited this, does anyone know anything about it?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Rob (Post 1653310)
I actually think it looks nicer than the regular officers bayonet
It is nicer...Actually though, generally Wehrmacht officers mainly wore Heer daggers instead of dress bayonets.

Agfinger 03-30-2009 05:39 PM
Re: I just inherited this, does anyone know anything about it?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 90%RealMoney (Post 1653458)
AG, I saw a show on the SS on Military channel I think. Those daggers that were given to the SS officers are beautiful. What does one of those babies go for?
$2500 to up to $30,000+ for a Himmler presentation model.

This Police bayonet is nowhere in that category.

Agfinger 03-30-2009 05:45 PM
Re: I just inherited this, does anyone know anything about it?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by argentos (Post 1653507)
Again, pricing this and saying yours is worth that much is laughable.

Snyder's wouldn't give you $1200 back for this same Customs bayonet in cash money.

That gets back to what I initially posted about buy/sell spreads on items like this...They are huge...Pay very little attention to what these dealers price their Nazi items at...Cut it in half, (or less), and then you have a starting idea for what this stuff actually sells for by John Q. Public.

UncaScrooge 03-30-2009 07:08 PM
Re: I just inherited this, does anyone know anything about it?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by elroy (Post 1653211)
Can you guys explain the exact purpose of the blood groove?

I assume it is to let blood run out of the guy on the pointy end of this thing but once you stab and withdraw what difference would it make?
The groove is there for the same reason you see grooves or indentations on some kitchen knives... to make it easier to withdraw the knife after you're through stabbing.

The groove let's air get inside the wound, to displace your blade, making it easier to pull out. Otherwise, there would be a "vacuum" effect, making it harder to withdraw the blade.

I'm sure you'll find this information useful! :ok:

Willie Peter 03-30-2009 07:12 PM
Re: I just inherited this, does anyone know anything about it?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by UncaScrooge (Post 1654170)
The groove is there for the same reason you see grooves or indentations on some kitchen knives... to make it easier to withdraw the knife after you're through stabbing.

The groove let's air get inside the wound, to displace your blade, making it easier to pull out. Otherwise, there would be a "vacuum" effect, making it harder to withdraw the blade.

I'm sure you'll find this information useful! :ok:
Scrooge....sounds like you've had some experience in this field...:s9::sarc:

UncaScrooge 03-30-2009 07:16 PM
Re: I just inherited this, does anyone know anything about it?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie Peter (Post 1654182)
Scrooge....sounds like you've had some experience in this field...:s9::sarc:

Everthing I ever learned and know, I learned from watching television!

What better source of information is there in the entire world??? :wink:

argentos 03-30-2009 07:28 PM
Re: I just inherited this, does anyone know anything about it?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by UncaScrooge (Post 1654170)
The groove is there for the same reason you see grooves or indentations on some kitchen knives... to make it easier to withdraw the knife after you're through stabbing.

The groove let's air get inside the wound, to displace your blade, making it easier to pull out. Otherwise, there would be a "vacuum" effect, making it harder to withdraw the blade.

I'm sure you'll find this information useful! :ok:
Wikipedia disagrees with you and awards the prize to JJ ShortStroke:

Quote:
A fuller is a rounded or beveled groove or slot in the flat side of a blade (e.g. a sword, knife, or bayonet). Contrary to popular belief, the term "blood groove" is a misnomer: the fuller was not designed to allow blood to flow from a stabbed person. A fuller is actually used to strengthen and/or lighten the blade, much in the way that an I-beam shape lends strength to a steel rod. In this respect, its effects are conclusively proven (i.e. removing metal from a blade is guaranteed to make it lighter). Many blades use fullers, even when they are so short that the physical effect is negligible.

Physics
The basic design principle is that bending causes more stress in material near the edge or back of the blade than material in the middle, due to leverage. The diagram at right shows stress distribution in an ideal blade with a rectangular section, with only a small amount of shear stress present at the neutral axis. Fullers remove material from near this neutral axis, which is closer to the blade's spine if only one edge is sharpened (see photo above). This yields stiffer blades of a given weight, or lighter blades of a given stiffness. The same principle is taken to an extreme in the I-shaped cross sections of most steel beams. Some even contend that this concept was borrowed into architecture from weapons design.

AndrewSly 03-30-2009 08:25 PM
Re: I just inherited this, does anyone know anything about it?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by argentos (Post 1653507)
I have one of those also, I inherited it from my grand father like 15 years ago. I will take a picture of them together shortly.
Let me know what you guy think.

:applause_

AndrewSly 03-30-2009 08:48 PM
Re: I just inherited this, does anyone know anything about it?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewSly (Post 1654318)
I have one of those also, I inherited it from my grand father like 15 years ago. I will take a picture of them together shortly.
Let me know what you guy think.

:applause_
Had to go find my other one, forgot about it.
Its in much better shap
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3572/...b2aace.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3453/...d16c7c.jpg?v=0
Its ingraved with "S.Ar.I. 928"

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3630/...c6370e.jpg?v=0
This one is ingraved with "S.M.V. 2193"

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3558/...aea7a5.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3640/...a64b5c.jpg?v=0

I didn't even think they where the same type.

Igotyour6 03-30-2009 08:55 PM
Re: I just inherited this, does anyone know anything about it?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by elroy (Post 1653211)
Can you guys explain the exact purpose of the blood groove?

I assume it is to let blood run out of the guy on the pointy end of this thing but once you stab and withdraw what difference would it make?
Blood groves allows air to be drawn into the wound to beaks the suction so you can easily remove the piece from the body of your victim. they will bleed just fine on their own.

UncaScrooge 03-30-2009 09:00 PM
Re: I just inherited this, does anyone know anything about it?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by argentos (Post 1654211)
Wikipedia disagrees with you and awards the prize to JJ ShortStroke:

So, TV can't be relied on as a reliable source of information?

Well, let me ask you this: who you gonna believe... wikipedia... or the
marines???

http://www.answers.com/topic/blood-groove

Actually, have to say the "structural" explanation seems to carry a bit more weight... you could say the "jury is out" on the "vacuum" rationale. :thumb.aspx:

argentos 03-31-2009 03:02 AM
Re: I just inherited this, does anyone know anything about it?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by UncaScrooge (Post 1654414)
So, TV can't be relied on as a reliable source of information?

Well, let me ask you this: who you gonna believe... wikipedia... or the
marines???
Last night on TV (England) they did a trial of three companies that claim to be able to give answers to telephoned questions about anything at all for �1 a go, compared to a panel of three (brainy) celebrities with a laptop and internet.

Best got about 90% of the answers right, worst was sixty something per cent.

Nobody knows everything about everything.


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